Starting to notice - the only people school firewalls keep away from resources are the teachers - students know of every proxy on the planet - Classroom 2.02024-03-29T09:19:18Zhttps://www.classroom20.com/forum/topic/show?id=649749%3ATopic%3A54645&feed=yes&xn_auth=noAgreed. I was just responding…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-12-12:649749:Comment:879752007-12-12T16:30:01.916ZLukehttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/newsboy9
Agreed. I was just responding to the original question with my opinion.<br />
Good luck on your other ventures.
Agreed. I was just responding to the original question with my opinion.<br />
Good luck on your other ventures. Hey you're right. Experience…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-12-12:649749:Comment:879732007-12-12T16:26:44.026ZJeremy Aldrichhttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/gxeremio
Hey you're right. Experience is a valid way to inform decision making. I'm not trying to start or take part in a flame war.<br />
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I guess I'm just thinking that we need to make our decisions based on the best interest of student learning with a logical interpretation of legal requirements. It feels like no amount of new information would cause you to change your position on this issue because your own experiences weigh so heavily on it. That's understandable, but if you're not going to change your…
Hey you're right. Experience is a valid way to inform decision making. I'm not trying to start or take part in a flame war.<br />
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I guess I'm just thinking that we need to make our decisions based on the best interest of student learning with a logical interpretation of legal requirements. It feels like no amount of new information would cause you to change your position on this issue because your own experiences weigh so heavily on it. That's understandable, but if you're not going to change your view regardless of new or clarified facts, there's no need to continue once we've laid the information and our reasoning out on the table. I would challenge you to prov…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-12-12:649749:Comment:879672007-12-12T16:04:45.691ZLukehttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/newsboy9
I would challenge you to prove each of your accusations since you brought it up and also show how your posts completely meet logical standards. Not everything can be decided by logic because we don't live in a world run by a computer (unless the Matrix is real). Our world requires making decisions based on experience, acquired knowledge, instinct, and many other factors. People interpret the same things differently and judges interpret the law differently and people will interpret our responses…
I would challenge you to prove each of your accusations since you brought it up and also show how your posts completely meet logical standards. Not everything can be decided by logic because we don't live in a world run by a computer (unless the Matrix is real). Our world requires making decisions based on experience, acquired knowledge, instinct, and many other factors. People interpret the same things differently and judges interpret the law differently and people will interpret our responses to this post differently. Let's see how many logical fa…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-12-12:649749:Comment:879532007-12-12T15:26:07.508ZJeremy Aldrichhttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/gxeremio
Let's see how many <a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/">logical fallacies</a> we can count in the above post. I see biased sample, burden of truth, hasty generalization, middle ground, misleading vividness, red herring, relativist fallacy, and special pleading. Am I missing any? ;-)<br />
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Both of us have presented information and I think we understand where one another stand pretty well. So my part of this conversation is over unless you have any questions. Good luck in your work, and…
Let's see how many <a href="http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/">logical fallacies</a> we can count in the above post. I see biased sample, burden of truth, hasty generalization, middle ground, misleading vividness, red herring, relativist fallacy, and special pleading. Am I missing any? ;-)<br />
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Both of us have presented information and I think we understand where one another stand pretty well. So my part of this conversation is over unless you have any questions. Good luck in your work, and especially with the Guardian ad Litem defense. It hasn't worked very well for other free speech issues in school. It's good to know that someon…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-12-12:649749:Comment:879392007-12-12T14:51:36.475ZLukehttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/newsboy9
It's good to know that someone at E-Rate says we can have Facebook and YouTube open that would free us up to open it if we saw fit. Let me tell you what happened when we had them opened at the beginning of this year. I had Facebook and YouTube open for about the first 9 weeks of school and you know what I got out of it? Parent complaints about things that were posted about their kids, teacher complaints that kids were always on Facebook and they had to constantly monitor them, and 90% of all of…
It's good to know that someone at E-Rate says we can have Facebook and YouTube open that would free us up to open it if we saw fit. Let me tell you what happened when we had them opened at the beginning of this year. I had Facebook and YouTube open for about the first 9 weeks of school and you know what I got out of it? Parent complaints about things that were posted about their kids, teacher complaints that kids were always on Facebook and they had to constantly monitor them, and 90% of all of our bandwidth went to YouTube. When I blocked it I did get plenty of complaints from students but not a single one was, "Now I can't access my study group" or "I used an education app on there."<br />
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As for the educational applications there are few with any quality. Here's one that's under the educational list, not exactly the education I think most of us care to be involved in.<br />
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<b>What Kind of Drunk are You?</b><br />
By Kegger Inc.<br />
Have you ever wondered what kind of drunk you were? Are you the social butterfly or the belligerent drunk regulating the party? Find out in seven easy questions with this fun application!<br />
26,990 daily active users (3%) — 58 reviews<br />
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I'm 23 years old and I have a ton of friends in college and about the only thing I can think of that none of them use facebook for is anything educational.<br />
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I do have to completely disagree that the best way to teach kids to be safe on a social network is to throw them on Facebook. I personally set up Moodle for our kids and I'm exploring Joomla as a District wide social network. If you want to teach kids to be safe when they swim you start in a pool not the ocean. Your tech people may be willing to set up something like that, although probably not just to "learn to use social networks safely."<br />
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As for being sued for haveing too-strict filters. There's no chance because the school is Guardian ad Litem for the student when in school which means that if we deem it harmful we can ban it. Libraries have no authority over a student other then to kick them out if they misbehave. Luke, I emailed the folks at…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-12-10:649749:Comment:872052007-12-10T20:52:39.414ZJeremy Aldrichhttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/gxeremio
Luke, I emailed the folks at <a href="http://e-ratecentral.com/CIPA/">E-rate central</a> to ask specifically about YouTube and Facebook and here's what they replied:<br />
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"The E-rate rules only state that Internet must be filtered. It's a local decision as to what must be filtered.<br />
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The social networking sites are a relatively new phenomena since CIPA was enacted, but we know of a number of schools that are blocking them -- and others that are updating their Internet Safety policies to address the…
Luke, I emailed the folks at <a href="http://e-ratecentral.com/CIPA/">E-rate central</a> to ask specifically about YouTube and Facebook and here's what they replied:<br />
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"The E-rate rules only state that Internet must be filtered. It's a local decision as to what must be filtered.<br />
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The social networking sites are a relatively new phenomena since CIPA was enacted, but we know of a number of schools that are blocking them -- and others that are updating their Internet Safety policies to address the issue."<br />
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I would say it's pretty safe to say blocking YouTube and Facebook are not required based on this response and the fact that school districts which don't block them still qualify for E-rate funding. If the requirement changes then the filters could change too, but as of now E-rate funding would not be at risk.<br />
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Also, regarding liability, this reminds me of a similar conversation we had before on this network about the <a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0527/p21s01-lepr.html">assumptions we carry regarding legal liability</a> - do you know of anyone who was sued because of too-lax filters? I have heard of <a href="http://www.aclu-wa.org/detail.cfm?id=557">several</a> (mostly library systems) that were <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techpolicy/2004-01-07-censor-law-appeal_x.htm">sued</a> because of too-strict filters...so you may actually be sticking your neck out further by going beyond the requirements of the law for filtering.<br />
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You asked about Facebook's potential use in education. Of course, Facebook started and is still geared towards the college crowd, so a lot of the "<a href="http://www.pbs.org/teachers/learning.now/2007/09/so_many_facebook_apps_so_littl_1.html">educational applications</a>" skew towards that age group. One thing that comes to mind for the middle school context in which I work is simply helping students learn to use social networks safely. It's much harder to do without having access to the site during class time. Kind of like trying to do drivers' ed without cars. We use TwoTrees Shelterbelt w…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-12-10:649749:Comment:870742007-12-10T15:09:55.250ZLukehttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/newsboy9
We use TwoTrees Shelterbelt which doesn't necessarily track percentage per use but does keep track of where each user goes and the percentage of bandwidth that goes to each site so it's easy to track down.<br />
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From your interpretation of CIPA you don't feels as though your tech people have to block YouTube and Facebook. But you're not the one whose butt is on the line if the government or E-Rate sees it differently. My interpretation (and probably the same interpretation of your tech people) of it…
We use TwoTrees Shelterbelt which doesn't necessarily track percentage per use but does keep track of where each user goes and the percentage of bandwidth that goes to each site so it's easy to track down.<br />
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From your interpretation of CIPA you don't feels as though your tech people have to block YouTube and Facebook. But you're not the one whose butt is on the line if the government or E-Rate sees it differently. My interpretation (and probably the same interpretation of your tech people) of it is that I must block YouTube because of inappropriate content (although another reason I block it is for the bandwidth) if you think that interpretation is wrong you could obtain a lawyer who specializes in this and ask his opinion.<br />
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As for Facebook can you please tell me how you would use it in education that would justify opening it? I personally have a Facebook account and it's nice for keeping in contact with friends that are miles away. But I've also gotten into our High Schools group and seen what the kids do to each other. One girl quit school completely because of what was said about her on Facebook. Thank God I had it blocked at school or it's possible we could have been sued. It's also not just about CIPA either, it's about doing what the administrators believe is in the best interest of our students. I've sat down with our superintendent and our building principals and this is how we've decided to handle it. I'm sure that's probably the same in your district.<br />
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I have a child on the way and I fully intend to block that childs access to most things on the internet and teach them to be careful online. But that's my child and I can effectively do that, we can't effectively teach all kids to do that in school without parent support. If you really think your tech people are being ridiculous then go to your administrators or even your BOE. But my guess is that the tech people are just implementing what your administrators want them to.<br />
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It's easy to blame the tech people, every time someone gets blocked in the district they ask me, "Why did you block whatever.com?" As though I personally visited the site and determined it needed to be blocked. I gave a checklist to my administrators with the type of web sites that they wanted to block, then I gave that same checklist to my Filter provider and they implemented the filter which is why we pay them. Luke, I did read past the fir…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-12-10:649749:Comment:870552007-12-10T14:46:16.282ZJeremy Aldrichhttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/gxeremio
Luke, I did read past the first bullet, and I've read the full text of CIPA as well. It requires comprehensive policies, but very little filtering (as I stated earlier, just filtering for obscene images). The policy can (and should, in my opinion) be teaching about the issues, addressing problems as they came up, and giving students information management skills they will use for their whole lives. Hiding behind CIPA or e-rate funding as an excuse to block YouTube and Facebook is either being…
Luke, I did read past the first bullet, and I've read the full text of CIPA as well. It requires comprehensive policies, but very little filtering (as I stated earlier, just filtering for obscene images). The policy can (and should, in my opinion) be teaching about the issues, addressing problems as they came up, and giving students information management skills they will use for their whole lives. Hiding behind CIPA or e-rate funding as an excuse to block YouTube and Facebook is either being misinformed or lying. Here are <a href="http://www.doug-johnson.com/dougwri/best-practices-for-meeting-cipa-requirements.html">some good ideas on "best practices" for complying with the law</a>.<br />
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I appreciate you being in conversation on this. And as far as bandwidth goes, do you know of any tools that could be used to monitor the bandwidth use of individual accounts? From the URL you referenced:…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-12-10:649749:Comment:870512007-12-10T14:32:23.739ZLukehttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/newsboy9
From the URL you referenced:<br />
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"Schools and libraries subject to CIPA are required to adopt and implement a policy addressing: (a) access by minors to inappropriate matter on the Internet; (b) the safety and security of minors when using electronic mail, chat rooms, and other forms of direct electronic communications; (c) unauthorized access, including so-called “hacking,” and other unlawful activities by minors online; (d) unauthorized disclosure, use, and dissemination of personal information…
From the URL you referenced:<br />
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"Schools and libraries subject to CIPA are required to adopt and implement a policy addressing: (a) access by minors to inappropriate matter on the Internet; (b) the safety and security of minors when using electronic mail, chat rooms, and other forms of direct electronic communications; (c) unauthorized access, including so-called “hacking,” and other unlawful activities by minors online; (d) unauthorized disclosure, use, and dissemination of personal information regarding minors; and (e) restricting minors’ access to materials harmful to them."<br />
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Please read past the first bullet. I believe that addressed the first half of your post, let me know if you need more on that.<br />
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As for bandwidth, let me try to use the same analogy that you did. "Highway X (the Information Super Highway) is too crowded. The school pays the toll for all access to the highway from our on ramp. We want to make sure that all drivers have the quickest access to all educational material with the least likelyhood of having a wreck or getting off at the wrong exit. So let's block all exits that have little or no educational value."<br />
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Bandwidth regulation tools would hit teachers that use educational tools effectively much harder then filters do. Things like TeacherTube would be cut with bandwidth monitors and for the teachers that don't use the Internet it would waste available bandwidth. We can inform all we want but the fact is that students will always break rules and generally only care about themselves. Which means that even if they know that by watching that music video they are hampering other peoples access they will still do it anyway (this is from experience not speculation.)<br />
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But when the administrators tell you to just block it so they don't have to deal with it. So in essence, blocking it is the administrative discipline.<br />
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I agree that there is a huge divide between tech admins and teachers and that's why I send out emails like the one I did, and why I come to this site, and why I rarely keep my mouth shut. I don't know what your school's situation is like but mine is in declining enrollment and my budget was cut to 50% of what it was last year. That means that I have to do whatever I can to maximize the resources we have so that we can get the best tech resources we can possibly have.<br />
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I know that sometimes we seem like Nazi's but we really are trying to do the best thing for you and your students, the big picture is often hard to see, but that's the only thing that your tech people can afford to look at. If you could get a number of your teachers to agree that, let's say, social networking would be a great thing that your students could use. Then you could all go to your tech people, explain what they want and they would find a safe, monitored, probably educational social networking site that they would probably have to pay for so you could use it. The problem comes when every teacher wants to use a different tool, if it's really the best you should be able to develop a following of other teachers and show proof that the tool effectively increases education. And just why do you believe y…tag:www.classroom20.com,2007-12-07:649749:Comment:861032007-12-07T19:57:03.301ZJeremy Aldrichhttps://www.classroom20.com/profile/gxeremio
And just why do you believe you need to block YouTube, FaceBook et al. for legal reasons? That's bunk. Neither CIPA nor any state law I know of would require blocking of those sites as a prerequisite for e-rate funding. At least you allow teachers to use YouTube, which is nicer than my district.<br />
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What you said about delicious and digg made me laugh. I use both sites extensively and have never seen any inappropriate pictures (which is <a href="http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cipa.html">what…</a>
And just why do you believe you need to block YouTube, FaceBook et al. for legal reasons? That's bunk. Neither CIPA nor any state law I know of would require blocking of those sites as a prerequisite for e-rate funding. At least you allow teachers to use YouTube, which is nicer than my district.<br />
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What you said about delicious and digg made me laugh. I use both sites extensively and have never seen any inappropriate pictures (which is <a href="http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cipa.html">what CIPA requires us to filter</a>) on either. We don't have to keep kids from typing in dirty search terms, we just have to work to make sure they don't see dirty pictures. Don't you know why kids of my era were so interested in National Geographic or certain parts of the encyclopedia? Heck, we even dog-eared pages of some of the more comprehensive dictionaries that included words we thought were funny to look up. Should we throw those out too?<br />
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I'm interested in your thoughts on bandwidth and how we can better manage it. The prevailing philosophy seems to be akin to saying, "Highway X is too crowded, so we're getting rid of some of the exits to popular places." Or how about, "We've got too many people coming to our football games, so we're restricting access to just our faculty and staff." Huh? Can't we find tools that help us monitor and regulate the bandwidth use of individual users? Can't we inform people (as you did here) about how they can help keep the tubes from getting clogged up?<br />
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As far as professionals acting unprofessionally, it seems that the best way to deal with them is administrative discipline rather than internet filters that keep other teachers from accessing great resources.<br />
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There is a huge divide right now between the tech admins and the teachers, and we need to restore some balance to the relationship. Teachers are here to teach the kids. Tech admins are here to help us have the best tech resources we can have so that we can do our job as well as possible.